6 years later...

[Thomas]

the terrorists hate our freedom

[Imbrifer]

We've been exploiting and bombing people all over the world for hundreds of years? Really? Hundreds of years? Hundreds?

Yes. Here are a few places we've had military operations over the past 231 years. I'll give you some off the top of my head: China (during Opium wars), Russia (during revolution), El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Phillippines, Jamacia, Greece, Mexico, Cuba, Peru, Colombia, Panama, Iraq, Congo,... should I keep going? Just because you weren't taught this in the American school system doesn't mean it ain't true.

You also don't mention that one of the goals of Al Queda is to establish Islamic states throughout the world and to overthrow Governments that are not Islamic in nature.

Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations wouldn't be able to recruit people, raise money or grow without people who see us butcher and starve innocents. You don't remember us bombing Iraqi water treatment plants during the '90s, do you? What about the 30,000+ civilians we've killed since 2003? You don't know how many troops we've had stationed in the middle east for the last fifty years, do you?

How can you support putting our nation at further risk by attacking civilians, thus swelling the ranks of terrorist groups? This war has shown us that wars consistently fail at stopping terrorism. Studies have shown that the phenomenon of suicide bombing and terrorism is a response to oppression and imperialism. Additionally, the 9/11 commission report stated our foreign policy was the central reason for al-Qaeda attacking us. The evidence is overwhelming.

Let me restate something: To fix a problem, fix what is causing the problem, don't start murdering people in response.

[uBeR]

I think Osama's two fatwas in 1996 and 1998 show that his attacks on us were not just random acts of aggressions.

[YomMamasHouse]

It was the "we haven't done anything wrong to provoke them" attitude that allowed the US to get so deep into this hole of a situation in the first place. What terrorists do may be horrid but don't dismiss them as senseless animals. I am not a historian but I have heard things about the US meddling in Middle Eastern affairs which sparked a lot of rage from various factions over there.

[FrenchToast]

What? You're crazy yomamas, we were just chilling out, minding our own business... haven't done shit since the country was created!

I'm trying not to get back into this... but it's boggling my mind that Innoc can believe what he's saying.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by uBeR

I think Osama's two fatwas in 1996 and 1998 show that his attacks on us were not just random acts of aggressions.

Who suggested that they were random acts of aggression?

[FrenchToast]

You did.

Originally Posted by Innoc

No, we did not do anything to provoke them.

[YomMamasHouse]

I think he meant unprovoked acts of aggression Innoc. I know you didn't think they rolled dice on it or something but what Uber is saying is that they were given some form of reason to terrorize the US.

How did Osama end up against the US anyway? Wasn't he working for them at some point? I haven't read up on this and can't be arsed to because I'm staring at the time remaining on FF download.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

You did.

Of course I did not say that. "Did not Provoke" is not the same as "random". We are right in front of their goal to establish Islamic states throughout the world and to overthrow Governments that are not Islamic in nature. Can you not see the very real difference between those two concepts?

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse

How did Osama end up against the US anyway? Wasn't he working for them at some point?

Paycheck bounced.

[FrenchToast]

Originally Posted by Innoc

Of course I did not say that. "Did not Provoke" is not the same as "random". We are right in front of their goal to establish Islamic states throughout the world and to overthrow Governments that are not Islamic in nature. Can you not see the very real difference between those two concepts?

Ay, I totally understand you, but I still feel you're incredibly wrong on your stance that you didn't provoke them.

[there's nothing here]

Okay, so now they're concepts.

Well, conceptually speaking, you can be just as wrong as you think you are right.

So can anyone else, really. But I'd better not say anything.. since I'm not one of those people who know history all that well. And.. you're one of those guys who like to base things on history and facts.

[there's nothing here]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Paycheck bounced.

Lmao.

WHO STOLE MY POPTARRRTAAAAAAAAAAAS?!

[Imbrifer]

We gave weapons to Osama Bin Laden when he was in Afghanistan fighting the USSR, I believe. After the collapse of the USSR, we were the folks trying to exploit and bomb the Islamic world, so his angriness turned towards us.

If you want to discuss any of my arguments, please ask questions/make statements. This is something people need to be educated and clear on.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Imbrifer

We gave weapons to Osama Bin Laden when he was in Afghanistan fighting the USSR, I believe. After the collapse of the USSR, we were the folks trying to exploit and bomb the Islamic world, so his angriness turned towards us.

If you want to discuss any of my arguments, please ask questions/make statements. This is something people need to be educated and clear on.

While we did aid the Mujahadeen the alleged training and support of OSL directly has long since been debunked. I suspect even Wikipedia has got that one right by now.

Honestly, I often wonder why you remain in the US. You seem to harbor alot of ill will towards this country.

You are wrong about "hundreds of years". You are throwing each of those examples out to demonstrate, I believe, that the US was acting in a villianous manner. You're wrong. We can go through that conflict by conflict if you like...however tedious that may be. The vast majority of those "conflicts you mention by name happened in the last 40 years. I can show where our involvement in many of those conflicts were actions in which we were invited and in which we were assisting because we were asked to do so. In mentioning each of those conflicts you've done nothing to explain why you believe your assertion is true.

As a prediction....there is absolutely nothing you can say that is going to sway me and there is absolutely nothing I can say that will sway you. But, by all means, do carry on....and be sure to include your insults about American schools and others as you see fit. It definitely makes your point more palatable.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by there's nothing here

Lmao.

WHO STOLE MY POPTARRRTAAAAAAAAAAAS?!

[Scuzzy]

Ok, so let's discuss this problem then. The issue is that we are in the middle east. Let's assume for a moment that the United States agrees to those demands and we remove ALL US troops, support, and workers from the Middle East, therefore we wouldn't be "provoking" the terrorists.

What exactly do you think would would happen? My guess is that oil would very quickly stop flowing due to internal/external wars and power struggles, the global economy would collapse.

Scuzzy

[there's nothing here]

So, let the economy collapse then.

Sounds a little like you're justifying things.

The thing is, what's been started has been started.. and there's probably no going back. The provoking's been done, see.

Let's say everything will be peachy, after. Then let the economy collapse. Who the fuck needs money? Isn't that a welcome trade-off to more people dying?

And, not to be a hippie, but it's also about time people stopped using gasoline anyway.

*Weren't like, gas prices lower before the war?

[Imbrifer]

I often wonder why you remain in the US. You seem to harbor alot of ill will towards this country

Hilarity. I remain here because we have a strong democratic tradition, America is a great nation and we have made tons of positive change over the past hundred or so years. I am an American - I believe in democracy and justice, values this nation was founded on. You, however, seem to view that being a superpower is all that matters - not democracy, not justice. It pains me that your ilk have hijacked this country, and my people - the true Americans - are going to take it back. Your children will live in a more democratic, more free, more just world whether you want it or not.

You are throwing each of those examples out to demonstrate, I believe, that the US was acting in a villianous manner.

Incorrect. My point is simply that we acted violently in these examples. In the case of our international aggression, it doesn't matter who invited us, it doesn't matter what our intentions were. The Iraqis who have lost innocent family members don't give a shiat about which Iraqis invited us in, or what some American politicians/military officials intentions were - they are pissed that we killed their family, and they want to get back at us. I bet if some nation invaded the US and murdered some of your family members and destroyed the infrastructure of our society, you'd feel quite the same. People respond to actions, not intentions.

But it seems you are finally agreeing that we have had dozens of violent international conflicts for hundreds of years. From attacking Native Americans and sieging pirate cities in Northern Africa in the early 1800s to our current conflict in Iraq, this is the truth.

My guess is that oil would very quickly stop flowing due to internal/external wars and power struggles, the global economy would collapse.

Baseless claims. There is strong interest in the middle east in maintaining peace between nations and profiting by selling oil to the rest of the world, and these have kept things in the middle east stable for this past half-century, not US military intervention.

I'll break it down very simply: For the vast majority of this nation's history, our foreign policy has been one of using our economic and military power to violently get what the ruling powers in this country want. The Terrorist attacks on september 11th, 2001 were a response to this. The 9/11 commission states that, al-Qaeda said that is what happened, international studies corroborate it, and its just logical. Yet you still deny it.

We need to change our policy to a policy of international cooperation, with violence being the very last resort. Why do you two have such an issue with this?

International cooperation is not a crazy, out-there, ineffective idea. Europe, which has been a hotbed of violence and inequality for thousands of years decided to do this after the World Wars, and it has benefitted each nation enormously.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Imbrifer

Hilarity. I remain here because we have a strong democratic tradition, America is a great nation and we have made tons of positive change over the past hundred or so years. I am an American - I believe in democracy and justice, values this nation was founded on. You, however, seem to view that being a superpower is all that matters - not democracy, not justice. It pains me that your ilk have hijacked this country, and my people - the true Americans - are going to take it back. Your children will live in a more democratic, more free, more just world whether you want it or not.

As always you make a great many assumptions without sufficient information. I have said nothing about being a superpower is all that matters. You have applied your own biases and filters and come to that conclusion. You do so in ignorance and it's offensive that you make such assumptions about me. You continue to insult to try to bolster your own views and you couch your views in such a way so as to villify anything that I bring up. I'm done discussing this with you. If you decide to be civil then perhaps we have something to talk about.

A more free world whether I want it or not...