Would a Attack and Defend focus be better?

[GoatMan]

CTF maps are more fun, more solid than AVD maps for the most part.

How can you really say that when the only people who even going after the objective are experienced vets? Everyone else is deathmatching in field/spawns.

Atleast in AvD they're pushing the enemy working towards a goal... gives a sense of accomplishment where as in the current CTF its like who cares.

[BinaryLife]

Originally Posted by GoatMan

How can you really say that when the only people who even going after the objective are experienced vets? Everyone else is deathmatching in field/spawns.

Atleast in AvD they're pushing the enemy working towards a goal... gives a sense of accomplishment where as in the current CTF its like who cares.

People that are death matching are still having fun.

I rarely see what I call "Death matching" in the field on any server. People are generally moving towards the other base. Shooting each other, and killing each other, is not death matching. When you have people that stay in the field and pretty much play field defense, that's when you could start calling DMing on them since they aren't defending the flag, or going for the new one. But I honestly haven't seen much if it at all. I think the problem is that most of our player base are clanners or hard core players that don't believe in killing on the yard. The most lenient I've heard of on these forums is that shooting is ok. But no "death matching" as in, no actual fighting.

When those people see players having fun on a pub server it triggers some switch in their brain that makes them start screaming noob, asshole, loser, skillless, and suckxorz until they turn blue. That, I see all the time. That, I see more than I see anything else. Leniency on a pub needs to exist. The only people that should be putting their proverbial feet down are the admins of a server.

For the record, "fun" in the sense that you are using it will vary in definition from person to person. It may not look like all those people are having fun playing their game their way, but in actuality they are. It's just that you wouldn't have fun if you did the same. Which I can respect completely. But there are more of them than there are of you, so why should the community shift based on that? Especially when you can go join a server that's playing avanti, or dustbowl and leave the people in Well to blow the hell out of each other contently?

[puppychow]

im shocked that avanti isnt being made / wasnt already done...avanti was always full on well run servers..

think i'm gonna try turning my low g server into attack defend only with a splash of DM and see how that is received..

[myersjr]

In response to this question, i would say variety is the best course of action. everyone seems to have different tastes as far as maps and style of play. So, catering to that would seem like the best course of action. Im kinda excited cuz ive seen a few of the new maps that have been produced.

Medieval is a nice one which you can find on the AE server now. Zippy put it on yesterday. Nice map. Check it out. Sorry i might have hijacked the thread for a minute, just wanted to put in a shameless plug for the AE server and its new maps..lol

[Rutabeggar]

I think there should be more of an emphasis on A/D map...maybe not an entire focus...but at least take the time to crank out enough A/D maps so an A/D league could actually start up with a legit rotation of more than 3 maps.

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

Thursday (AvD/IaD)
ff_cornfield
ff_palermo
ff_cz2
ff_dustbowl

Currently, for the communities organized pub night, we have CZ2 filling in the place of a 4th A/D map. That's sorta ridiculous as that's a huge base we are leaving out.

CTF is great, I enjoy it, and for the most part the community seems to enjoy it...but even with the CTF maps that are out, there are a serious lack of quality, dev produced maps. I'm pretty sure there are more conc/DM maps than CTF and A/D combined. How can an actual base be built if there are maps being produced that the average gamer has no idea how to play?

I've played more than I usually do in the past few days and I find my annoyance in pubs consists of groups of people camping in yards or using engies to camp in front of the other teams base.

There's no real answer to this, because obviously among the people putting out quality maps, very few, if any, actually want to make quality A/D maps...so we may want more, but we won't get it.

[Circuitous]

Originally Posted by puppychow

im shocked that avanti isnt being made / wasnt already done...avanti was always full on well run servers..

think i'm gonna try turning my low g server into attack defend only with a splash of DM and see how that is received..

Low-G AvD just plain don't work, dude. Cornfield is a cakewalk, Dustbowl just becomes awkward...

[GoatMan]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

People that are death matching are still having fun.

I rarely see what I call "Death matching" in the field on any server. People are generally moving towards the other base. Shooting each other, and killing each other, is not death matching. When you have people that stay in the field and pretty much play field defense, that's when you could start calling DMing on them since they aren't defending the flag, or going for the new one. But I honestly haven't seen much if it at all. I think the problem is that most of our player base are clanners or hard core players that don't believe in killing on the yard. The most lenient I've heard of on these forums is that shooting is ok. But no "death matching" as in, no actual fighting.

When those people see players having fun on a pub server it triggers some switch in their brain that makes them start screaming noob, asshole, loser, skillless, and suckxorz until they turn blue. That, I see all the time. That, I see more than I see anything else. Leniency on a pub needs to exist. The only people that should be putting their proverbial feet down are the admins of a server.

For the record, "fun" in the sense that you are using it will vary in definition from person to person. It may not look like all those people are having fun playing their game their way, but in actuality they are. It's just that you wouldn't have fun if you did the same. Which I can respect completely. But there are more of them than there are of you, so why should the community shift based on that? Especially when you can go join a server that's playing avanti, or dustbowl and leave the people in Well to blow the hell out of each other contently?

They're death matching in the sense that they're just working their way to the next enemy. The enemy spawn is about as far as they go.

In AvD maps its the same thing but that goal goes hand and hand with capturing the point as its pushing the defense back by doing so... more sense of accomplishment.

There are servers that don't care if you shoot in the field i won't play in a server that crys about it personally but thats not really the point... They aren't working the objective in capture the flag maps no matter where they actually are on the map.

Can't think of a game i've played of CTF on a public server that got my blood pumping defending/or playing offense... Can think of a few AvD games that were pretty intense.

[greenday5494]

i like palermo just cuz it's so open, huge, and have limits. really shows off FF and the source engine

[Peon]

Originally Posted by GoatMan

How can you really say that when the only people who even going after the objective are experienced vets? Everyone else is deathmatching in field/spawns.

I also do not see this as a legitimate complaint, seeing as you could apply the same logic towards every other Fortress game ever made, on the CTF front. Even when I was new to TFC, I still instinctively tried to push the enemy back towards their base, which is one step in getting to the flag. You can hardly call it deathmatching since I continued on inside, reveling in the arrogance of killing dudes inside their own base.

However.....once you see that flag for the first time.....you want to cap that baby just one time....and once you get that first cap.....that's when it all goes spiraling out of control, and you start to live for the next one. If taking out dudes any number of different ways per class, or making a big push for the flag and getting that sucker back home through the narrowest windows of opportunity doesn't get your blood flowing.....I don't know what to tell you. You just ain't got CTF in you...

[Rutabeggar]

I think I know why we have a lack of A/D maps for FF, because no one knows how to play them! We all know that A/D is all about the push and holding those critical choke points...but after playing a round on dustbowl, then a round on Palermo, I would wager to say that only about 4 of the 22 people on the server actually knew how to move the flag effectively...other than that it was just awkward and an annoyance...Palermo is pretty ridiculous to defend, I love the open nature of it, but it's so open that jumping is a breeze and you can fly past SGs with ease...Dustbowl is a mess...that window on CP 2 that still isn't fixed from 1.0 is just a drag for the D, it makes setting up a solid sentry at the gate to cover both sides really really difficult, and when there's 20+ people playing you can forget about it, the frame lag coupled with the spam is just a nightmare...

Basically what I'm saying is maybe A/D maps don't suit the source engine so well...the map makers aren't at fault here, but I def. understand why we have more CTF maps that A/D maps...just so hard to build a A/D map that is fair and balanced while maintaining what we know as an "A/D" map.

[GoatMan]

Originally Posted by Peon

I also do not see this as a legitimate complaint, seeing as you could apply the same logic towards every other Fortress game ever made, on the CTF front. Even when I was new to TFC, I still instinctively tried to push the enemy back towards their base, which is one step in getting to the flag. You can hardly call it deathmatching since I continued on inside, reveling in the arrogance of killing dudes inside their own base.

Yes its a flaw of all CTF and atleast TF2 decided to offer a bunch more AvD maps due to that flaw.

Direct me to the pub server with all this real CTF going on... where i actually feel like its competitive and not a cake walk or 1v8.

[jordan10la]

Originally Posted by Rutabeggar

There's no real answer to this, because obviously among the people putting out quality maps, very few, if any, actually want to make quality A/D maps...so we may want more, but we won't get it.

Well if I ever get around to learning how to map besides just making a box I could make one That is if my FF ever works.

[Green Mushy]

I vote scrap ctf maps for now, and focus on AvD. There are enough ctf maps and they are just used as a change of scenery for mulching in eachothers bases. AvD shows the team "Move your flag, smash and grab Fortress" play we need.

Guys, good news. I have an AvD map coming out that will change how u feel about the style. The problem with the current AvD maps is that they are too big, new players need to see action, and the flag, and the cap area. Keep an eye out for FF_Vertigo.

[Peon]

Originally Posted by GoatMan

Yes its a flaw of all CTF and atleast TF2 decided to offer a bunch more AvD maps due to that flaw.

Just to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that all of this CTF fighting is simply team deathmatch....what's so bad or flawed about that? You don't see Spys doing that crap, so the classes that can, will...isn't that fun?

Originally Posted by GoatMan

Direct me to the pub server with all this real CTF going on... where i actually feel like its competitive and not a cake walk or 1v8.

Uhhhh.....it was at the AE server.....tonight.....you were playing there.

I'd still like to see Avanti though....

[!nF3D4L]

Originally Posted by Rutabeggar

Basically what I'm saying is maybe A/D maps don't suit the source engine so well...the map makers aren't at fault here, but I def. understand why we have more CTF maps that A/D maps...just so hard to build a A/D map that is fair and balanced while maintaining what we know as an "A/D" map.

ruta is right there, play on palermo and u cap cap cap maybe get held for a minute or two and cap, then vise-versa. its just not fun, atleast in a ctf u dm cap flags and do wat ever. on the two avd maps we have its just 35% of the people know what with flag(not a big deal) but usually no knows how to setup on d, cause espicaly on palermo, u can cap from like 15 feet above the cap. it just doesn't work out right.

[Firefox11]

For like the 239th time, I hope the CP Area is lowered to make AvD maps viable again...

[GoatMan]

Originally Posted by Peon

Just to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that all of this CTF fighting is simply team deathmatch....what's so bad or flawed about that? You don't see Spys doing that crap, so the classes that can, will...isn't that fun?

Uhhhh.....it was at the AE server.....tonight.....you were playing there.

I'd still like to see Avanti though....

Whats so bad about death match? Well i enjoy death matching a lot as i'm sure you noticed but the fact is after one map of DMing i probably won't play again on a pub for a week because it gets repetitive.

I played plasma last night and for the first 5 minutes of the game waitied in the flag room for someone to come only to find 1 straggler once in a blue moon. After growing tired of that i opted to go kill everyone in the field.

There was no defense in your base ethier... one scout could of ran up one hell of a cap count but no one wants to cap flags against no defense.

Palermo is an awful.

[Pon]

Alright, I see people saying that they (or others) don't know how to play AvD/ID maps.

So, do the same people think that an article for these maps, like the following on the Wiki, would help a lot? a little? not at all?

http://fortress-forever.com/wiki/Map...bowl/cp1_area1

[chilledsanity]

Okay, I'm going to reply to a bunch of stuff:

Originally Posted by Goatman

Atleast in AvD they're pushing the enemy working towards a goal... gives a sense of accomplishment where as in the current CTF its like who cares.

Bingo. I get bored playing CTF and this is exactly why. I don' t care if my team gets 10 more points, it feels like a superficial objective. In AvD you have a really concrete objective which makes all the difference to me.

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

People that are death matching are still having fun.

I'm sure some of them are, but for me it gets boring after a few minutes and I usually end up quitting. That doesn't happen for me on AvD.

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

Especially when you can go join a server that's playing avanti, or dustbowl and leave the people in Well to blow the hell out of each other contently?

Well there is no avanti and typically there is no server running an AvD map.

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Cornfield is a cakewalk

As opposed to the piece of cake it is now?

Originally Posted by Peon

I don't know what to tell you. You just ain't got CTF in you...

I guess I don't then. I certainly get a rush trying to survive and push it forward in dustbowl. Capping in that has real consequences.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

I vote scrap ctf maps for now, and focus on AvD. There are enough ctf maps

I'd like to hear a rebuttal to this. We must have 20 - 30 CTF maps compared to THREE flawed AvD ones. Cornfield's become a joke, dustbowl has flaws in it for sg's, and I really think Palermo needs an overhaul to make it more fun.

[own3r]

task #1 fix dustbowl

Replace the other A/D maps with better designed counterparts, spice them up nicely. Then release, HL2 mapping is essentially open source with things like vmex around. So it would make sense for mappers to release their maps in an open source no derivitive works licence so people can collaborate on the same map.